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Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:59 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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quote:
#6 "Act early so students do not drop out .. ."
#10 "Involve the entire community in dropout prevention . .."
Exactly! GRIN And here I had thought of another orginal idea. Someone else smater than I already figured it out. I knew the answers weren't rocket science. And that if I could figure it out someone else could also. People even smarter than I.
I'm going to mark that link. |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:06 am |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:18 am |
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John Holt
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| "To return once more to compulsory school in its barest form, you will surely agree that if the government told you that on one hundred and eighty days of the year, for six or more hours a day, you had to be at a particular place, and there do whatever people told you to do, you would feel that this was a gross violation of your civil liberties." (1980) |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:18 am |
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00SL2
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John Holt, who are you quoting, and from what source in 1980? I don't agree that mandatory education is a violation of personal civil liberties. To say "do whatever people told you to do" sounds like a rebellious child saying "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do!" Education may need to be restructured to unlearn that attitude, to prepare individuals to be self-sufficient members of society, who may then desire to be significant contributors to society.
Some teenagers and adults who don't get that education actually believe they need do nothing to support themselves, that they are entitled the world should support them because that's the environment they live in. This attitude needs to be changed, and it can only be done by preventing it with education.
One example of this attitude is the young divorced mother of three who believed her unemployed boyfriend who wasn't looking for work actually deserved the unemployment benefits he was receiving because "he paid for it." She was surprised to learn it was the employer who paid for his unemployment benefits. This example of ignorance is attributed to not finishing high school or being involved in the work force herself. |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:17 pm |
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Unschooler
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John C. Holt (1923-1985) was a WWII submariner, educator, writer and advocate for children’s rights.
We should not be using the police and courts to enforce compulsory school attendance. If we want young people to attend school we need to offer them a relevant curriculum in a learning environment that recognized their personal autonomy and encourages a love of learning for the sake of knowledge.
Recommended reading: _The Teenage Liberation Handbook: how to quit school and get a real life and education_ by Grace Llewellyn (1998). I believe GDL Clio has a copy.
Unschooler (Home Schooler) |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:04 pm |
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Ted J
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quote:
One example of this attitude is the young divorced mother of three who believed her unemployed boyfriend who wasn't looking for work actually deserved the unemployment benefits he was receiving because "he paid for it." She was surprised to learn it was the employer who paid for his unemployment benefits. This example of ignorance is attributed to not finishing high school or being involved in the work force herself.
He absolutely paid for it if he worked! See some body somewhere determined that uneployment insurance should be paid by someone. Supposedly, if someone worked if the employer didn't have to pay unemployment insurance, then fictionally the employee would make more money! Notice I said fictionally! |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:22 pm |
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Simple
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[quote="Ted J"]
quote:
He absolutely paid for it if he worked! See some body somewhere determined that uneployment insurance should be paid by someone. Supposedly, if someone worked if the employer didn't have to pay unemployment insurance, then fictionally the employee would make more money! Notice I said fictionally!
No wonder you get so exasperated! We're dealing with simple people whose eyes would glaze over if you said this to them. You're
looking
for what lies beyond, which isn't important in this instance. The employee did not pay the unemployment insurance premium as a deduction from his own gross wage, the employer paid it over and above what he had to pay the employee. The guy was resting on his laurels when he should have been looking for work. - Simple. 00SL2 |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:12 pm |
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00SL2
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Unschooler (Home schooler) wrote: ". . . We should not be using the police and courts to enforce compulsory school attendance. If we want young people to attend school we need to offer them a relevant curriculum in a learning environment that recognized their personal autonomy and encourages a love of learning for the sake of knowledge."
You make it sound as though someone's going to come and drag the kid off to school, when the object of involving authority is to harness the wayward energy and redirect it in a constructive way, i.e., involve the non-student in programs designed to get their attention and their respect, and hopefully, give them enough incentive to motivate them to
want
to learn.
What better alternative would you suggest for the high school dropout running the streets getting into trouble? Do you think they'd accept an open invitation for you to home school them so they didn't have to go to public school? It's obvious they're not interested in learning or they'd be in school. How do you motivate or inspire
anyone
to want anything they are not interested in?
Please relate what you feel to be a "relevant curriculum," and what "learning environment" will recognize the "personal autonomy" of a delinquent teenager wandering the streets, selling drugs and shooting people? I hardly think such an individual would love learning anything just for the sake of knowledge. Might like to learn how to beat the competition, though.
Did you read the 12-point recommendation of the NEA, link posted above? |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:12 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
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quote:
We're dealing with simple people whose eyes would glaze over if you said this to them. You're looking for what lies beyond, which isn't important in this instance. The employee did not pay the unemployment insurance premium as a deduction from his own gross wage, the employer paid it over and above what he had to pay the employee. The guy was resting on his laurels when he should have been looking for work. - Simple. 00SL2
That's why I sometimes find it difficult to talk to some people. What seems obvious to me isn't always obvious to everyone else. I try to break down the situations by simpliest arguement then work them all through to their logical outcomes. 1+2=3, 2+2=4 etc. See the arguement for Unemployment being that they "would have made more if the employer didn't have to pay unemployment insurance" is a falesy! While the former employer is not obligated to pay out if the employee was fired with a just cause. Meaning the employer followed the law when firing the individual. Which is usually not the case!
However, One is not OWED unemployment just because they worked. And yes, Unemployed should be looking for work. It's just too bad there aren't many jobs around here that would support someone being able to live off the wages they make. While I don't condone people not working for thier pay or even pumping the government (ie My Tax Dollars) for welfare. I understand! They keep rasing or taxes, shipping our jobs overseas. It's just makes dollars and sense that if you can't make a living working. You can survie on unemployment or welfare. Plus not have to work. So the next logical question would be. Is Welfare and Unemployment benifits too generous? LOL I could continue... |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:18 pm |
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Unschooler
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quote:
00SL2 schreef:
Did you read the 12-point recommendation of the NEA, link posted above?
The NEA is a teachers union. Their recommendations promote the interest of the educational establishment, not the interest of students.
"It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that modern methods of instruction have not entirely strangled curiosity of inquiry. ... It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty."
- Albert Einstein |
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Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:42 am |
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