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Richard
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I like to read the "Talk Back" section in the Flint Journal and think it provides a view from the public you just don't hear about. So, last week I was reading about a person who says, "Why do we continue to worry about buying General Motors cars and products? She went on to say General Motors has done nothing to help keep jobs in Michigan and continues to move jobs to other countries. So she adds, everytime you purchase a General Motors product or car, you are continuing to provide jobs for those in Mexico and India and not in this country. The real people who are concerned about not buying General Motors cars are the retirees who what to keep their pension and healh care benefits.
Just passing along what one reader has to say. I for one no longer get upset when in Michigan, or any other state, and see massive amounts of Japanese vehicles on the roads.
Richard |
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Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:55 am |
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Biggie9
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guess it depends on your perspective.
do you react to what they've done/doing
or do you look ahead and say well there are still xxx thousands of people making those products here. The less they sell the more likely there will be more plant closings/reductions. |
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Biggie |
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Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:02 pm |
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Richard
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You have to look at a much bigger picture. GM will move all their jobs out of Michigan given the chance. It's like beingont he Titantic knowing it is happening.
Richard |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:24 am |
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Biggie9
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quote:
Richard schreef:
You have to look at a much bigger picture. GM will move all their jobs out of Michigan given the chance. It's like beingont he Titantic knowing it is happening.
Richard
Really???
Are you perhaps Richard Waggoner? Giving us a scoop?
Is that why they moved their HQ to the Ren Center, when they could have used that opportunity to move out of state?
What about the Tech Center? Is that moving too Richard?
The Engine Div HQ in Pontiac, is that moving too? How about SPO world HQ here in Flint, where are they vamoosing too?
I'd like to get a head start and start packing up. |
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Biggie |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:20 am |
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Richard
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Perhaps you should open your eyes to the big picture. General Motors is making more cars now than they ever have but, are they doing this in Michigan? Have you not taken a drive around Flint to see all the plants that are closed and torn down. Why has that happened? Why did GM move all those jobs in the first place? Why does GM continue to do their work in other countries? Is it labor? Is it Union? Is it lazy Americans? Or is it something else.
If GM really had a vested interested in Michigan, people would still be working there. But, those jobs are now in Mexico and overseas and if GM really gave a rat's behind about the American workforce and the people of Michigan, those people would still be working and Flint would not be in the shape it is in. |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:09 am |
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Dave Starr
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| A large number of auto industry jobs today require basic reading & math skills. Jobs have gone way beyond sticking a bolt in a hole. Maybe GM looked at the schools here & decided they could no longer get the caliber of workers they need. Not to mention a work ethic, which seems to be sadly lacking in a lot of people today. I also wouldn't discount the effect of an overly militant local union, either. |
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I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:28 am |
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Richard
F L I N T O I D
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Now that Dave, is the smartest answer I've ever heard.
Richard |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:30 am |
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Ryan Eashoo
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Dave those are some really good points that not many people have brought up yet. The bottomline in this town is WE NEED JOBS TODAY!
quote:
Dave Starr schreef:
A large number of auto industry jobs today require basic reading & math skills. Jobs have gone way beyond sticking a bolt in a hole. Maybe GM looked at the schools here & decided they could no longer get the caliber of workers they need. Not to mention a work ethic, which seems to be sadly lacking in a lot of people today. I also wouldn't discount the effect of an overly militant local union, either.
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Flint Michigan Resident, Tax Payer, Flint Nutt - Local REALTOR - Activist. www.FlintTown.com |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:06 pm |
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Biggie9
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quote:
Richard schreef:
Perhaps you should open your eyes to the big picture. General Motors is making more cars now than they ever have but, are they doing this in Michigan? Have you not taken a drive around Flint to see all the plants that are closed and torn down. Why has that happened? Why did GM move all those jobs in the first place? Why does GM continue to do their work in other countries? Is it labor? Is it Union? Is it lazy Americans? Or is it something else.
If GM really had a vested interested in Michigan, people would still be working there. But, those jobs are now in Mexico and overseas and if GM really gave a rat's behind about the American workforce and the people of Michigan, those people would still be working and Flint would not be in the shape it is in.
whats the basis for your assertions?
plants are closed, therefore GM doesn't care for its workers?
our competitors have $1.5K+ cost advantage on comparable vehicles in healthcare costs alone, but GM can not lower its costs to compete, because it may appear to be disloyal to the workers?
well what about the company goes belly-up, then where are ALL the workers? Including the ones in the STILL OPERATING PLANTS AND ENGINEERING centers worldwide, yes, worldwide [that includes Flint]. GM builds AND SELLS vehicles around the world; many of those markets/countries REQUIRE companies selling in their country to HAVE a manufacturing presence there.
That is why we have a presence around the world. But you want to know the strogest reason GM is building plants over there?
Its easy.
This market is pretty maxed out in that our market size is fairly flat, our population is fairly flat, & definitely is not expanding as rapidly as many other regions of the world. Plus, most every car maker is competing in this market, with growing presence....how many foreign company plants were here 30-20-10 years ago versus today. meaning the pie wants to be cut into more & smaller slices. Compare that to India and China, two growing, emerging markets, with populations in the BILLIONS versus our near 300 million. Do you know there are more MALE SMOKERS in China than there are people in all of the USA? That is where the market will be in the future...they are buying cigarettes today and cars next year. And that is where the future growth in plants will be also, in order to control the cost of production & logisitics. Also, keep in mind, those jobs just didn't disappear overnight. It took a lot of time on the downward trend line. yes, shame to those in charge for not being successful in determing the correct response of action. On both sides of the equation, labor, management and the government.
Second, as far as companies are concerned, I still recall the words of one of my business professors from school: THE goal [your vested interest] of a company is to REMAIN a going concern. PERIOD.
to remain IN BUSINESS. There are a number of forces at play reflecting the various constitutencies of a business:
the customer, the workers, both salaried and hourly, the owners/stockholders, the communities within which the companies operate, the governments [local, state, national etc], etc.
All these groups have interests; some are congruent and sometimes they are conflicting. These interests end up shaping the decisions and actions a company takes. It is only afterwards that they see if the result is success or failure.
True, fewer people work in Michigan than before. But that is also true of other companies. The market is global, no longer USA only. And it's pretty logical that the growth of jobs would also occur around those new markets. If anyone thought we'd be making Buicks here to be sold in Argentina or Singapore, your kidding yourselves, just as the japanese and europeans have built their plants here to sell to Americans [note, NONE of those new plants are in Michigan either...ask them why].
Frankly, if the auto companies can be criticized objectively about anything, it maybe for remaining with too much presence here in Michigan for too long, that has in part contributed to their poor performance. |
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Biggie |
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:15 pm |
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JBToolFist
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Biggie: as always you're making too much rational sense. People around here don't like to hear the truth because it means they won't have anybody/anything to villify or to blame their problems on.
When you write, I'm reminded of the David Byrne lyric: "stop making sense!" |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07pLGIgyfjw
"If you ain't from Flint, then it's like straight up F*&^ You!" - The Dayton Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiV_ue-PbL4 |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:35 am |
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Richard
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GM investing $500M in South American plants. This article is in the Flint Journal dated July 19th, 2007 in the business section.
Just think what could happen to Flint if GM was investing this kind of money in the North American plants, mainly in the Flint area.
But as you can see, GM is more interested in out of the country investments which still remains unanswered as to why?
If the blame is on health care cost for the workers and retirees, then cut it and I'm sure the union will go along with that in order to keep jobs in America. Bull! |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:08 am |
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Biggie9
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quote:
Richard schreef:
GM investing $500M in South American plants. This article is in the Flint Journal dated July 19th, 2007 in the business section.
Just think what could happen to Flint if GM was investing this kind of money in the North American plants, mainly in the Flint area.
But as you can see, GM is more interested in out of the country investments which still remains unanswered as to why?
If the blame is on health care cost for the workers and retirees, then cut it and I'm sure the union will go along with that in order to keep jobs in America. Bull!
sorry I did the best I could to explain, from my non-expert perspective, why I believe it is necessary for GM or any other international-based company to invest in the countries where they have markets and production. Some of those countries [like Mexico] have laws requiring same. otherwise, it is usually the most efficient as well as postive goodwill it engenders [see how the perspective changed for much of the USA when the Japanese started hiring Americans to work in plants in the USA, vice just importing cars]
if you think we would supply the South African market from plants in Flint, you don't understand the complexities and costs associated with production control & logisitics & finish product supply chain.
As far as the domestic's health costs disadvantages, its already been reported that it is a topic of the current contract negotiation. what remains to be seen, IMO, is what view the UAW has of itself. Are they viewing themselves the maintainer of the inexorable dwindling, but highly compensated, aging membership; or, are they looking to to continue to be a robust & vital presence in representing working men & women in our country. To be sure there are signals of both. I know they have been trying to branch out and represent in other industries, but their automotive membership has been graying for some time, the bulk of the people having reached the magical "30 years" and out now or in the next few years [thats why so many people were enticed to retire recently, some 30,000+]
I think the both the domestic auto companies and the labor supplier, the UAW are at a crossroads. The results of such decisions often aren't realized for some time in the future. Will the downward spiral of dwindling market presence, plant closings, employe abandonment continue unabated? or, will some dramatic, perhaps even risky countermeasure be adopted that will stabilize if not improve the outcome for them [and us] all?
Sadly, my odds are on the former, but my hopes are for the latter. |
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Biggie |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:33 pm |
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Richard
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You mention other countries require production to take place in their countries then why are we not demanding the same?
How many KIA's are built here, how about Nissons' I know Toyota and Honda have some production here but it seems as if the US has to bow to everyone else yet we are expected to open our markets to all. How many American made cars do we ship into Japan, how about India, and do you think China drives a Chevy?
How about the new Chinese cars that Chrysler plans to import and sell in this country. What has happened to this country? We are always trying to be so policitly correct for everyone else yet these same countries do not give a damn about us. |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:41 pm |
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last time here
Guest
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agree with richard 100%.
america is and has been sold down the river.......for greed. |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:34 pm |
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Biggie9
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quote:
You mention other countries require production to take place in their countries then why are we not demanding the same?
well we have at various times placed significant tariffs on imports, including imported trucks.
Eventually most of the foreign makers of note, WITH significant market presence HAVE US, CANADA or MEXICAN plants, to supply the NA market. Maybe you haven't been reading about all the European plants locating in South Carolina, Alabama, etc etc..along with the growing presence of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi plants in the midwest? BTW, Nissan has been here for decades, in Tennessee. There are ovewr a dozen foreign national companies with a myriad of plants here in the US. More than that they buy products from other US companies with US workers to supply them, from toilet paper, to candy bars to machine-toolls, auto components and everything in between. They indeed are putting hundreds of thousands of Americans to work. Oh, but few in Michigan....do you know why?
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How many KIA's are built here, how about Nissons' I know Toyota and Honda have some production here but it seems as if the US has to bow to everyone else yet we are expected to open our markets to all.
Keep in mind some of those Korean products are owned by GM. Plus Korean products are built in North America.
Do you realize that in July alone, just Honda, Nissan & Toyota produced MORE vehicles in their NA plants than GM did? The point being, your charge that foreign makers aren't producing here is baseless.
Did you know that GM has 181 production facilities around the world and that only 80 of them are in NA? There are 41 production facilities in Europe, 35 in Asia/Pacific and 25 in Latin America and Africa. GM IS an international corporation and has been so FOR DECADES. Sorry if you don't like that, but don't be xenophobic.
If you really believe that it would be workable to produce and supply all the hundreds of countries of the world's markets from the US, much less Flint, you do not understand the realities of manufacturing in general, and the automotive industry in particular, much less basic geography, history and current world politics etc as well as the current capabilities of inter-continental shipping [no we can't send them via Star Trek-like transporters yet]
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How many American made cars do we ship into Japan, how about India, and do you think China drives a Chevy?
Actually the CHinese are quite taken with the Buick nameplate. yes we produce and sell cars over there for the burgeoning Chinese market. I know that is where the future growth is, and we are positioning [GM] to be a major player in the market. You do not seem to understand that it takes profits to provide the cash to develop new vehicles for any market. Chinese market profits come back to the USA. Where GM can put them into cars for the US market. Profits are good, and we will take them, as a US based company ANYWHERE we can get them, because we can then afford to carry the weaker [US/Europe] segments of the business until we can get winning combinations of vehicle design, quality, price etc. One thing I do know after 33+ years in this business, it IS cyclical.
We do sell some vehicles in Japan, but its never been very many. Cadillac's do sell well over there since the Japanese do like their large town cars, limos etc.
[quote]How about the new Chinese cars that Chrysler plans to import and sell in this country. [/qote]
Chrysler hurt itself many years ago dropping their international presence. They desperately are looking for international partnerships. Obviously the Mercedes "joint venture" didn't work out...note what does that say about the american workforce/manufacturing/US sales market environment...its tough to make a buck with $3-4000 incentives on the hood of each vehicle to move the iron.
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What has happened to this country? We are always trying to be so policitly correct for everyone else yet these same countries do not give a damn about us.
thats right, its called national interests. Same reason Saddam invaded Kuwait and we kicked him out.
No country gives a damn about anyone else, including us, EXCEPT, to the extent they have to in order to protect themselves, their economy etc. by cooperation with others. That is how we get trade treaties, tariffs, etc.
I am curious Richard, do you own any investment instruments like stocks, bonds, mutual funds etc? |
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Biggie |
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:41 pm |
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