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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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Hello all. I am in the process of writing a bit of something on the power structures in Flint. The reason that I have come to this forum today is not to necessarily post my opinions on the topic but to understand some things that I was not around for and thus have no actual perspective on. The "Flint of my Childhood" thread has clued me into a couple things, especially that a number of you have long histories in this city, and a relatively far-reaching memory. This is what I am hoping to draw upon.
What I am in particular interested in is the history of power-relations in this city. I am in the process of creating maps of business centers in Flint, and one of the interesting (albeit rather obvious) things that is coming out of this process is the focus of business centers around GM-related neighborhoods and plants in specific. As GM faded from the city, so too did the businesses that were around those population/business centers.
I am interested in this because of the "college town" initiative that has been taken up by the city government and especially UM-Flint. While I won't state my specific opinions on this, I will say that I think there are quite a few social cons associated with this changing dynamic. At the top of my interests is this - Flint was a "GM Town" once upon a time, where being a laborer was normal. As we transition to a "College Town" does this mean that we are putting college students/college people on a pedestal, making them the "norm?"
Currently, I can see that the power structures and elites in this city focus at the core - downtown. Here we see an incredible amount of police traffic, college students, new businesses - the possibility of great vibrancy. Meanwhile, the fringe or peripheral areas of Flint seem to continue in a state of decline. Less police traffic, higher crime rates, more closed/closing businesses - what has lead to this? I know that Flint used to lead the country in "community policing" programs, and could once upon a time brag about their volunteerism.
Could some of you paint a picture for me? What did your communities look like, what were social relationships like "back in the day?" What did the city under GM look like - was the government the same, were the policing structures different, were communities still at odds with one another, was segregation still common? What was downtown like, where was the "life" of the city focused? I'm not looking for dreamy sentiments such as "Oh it was better back then.." but rather an honest, as close to objective view of the city under GM as possible - accounts of its existence and how it compares to today's environment.
I would really appreciate any perspective you folks could bring here for me, I have absolutely no first hand memory of the city then and largely only have old news stories and statistical accounts. I would like to add a face to those descriptions. If you are not comfortable posting these descriptions in the forum but would like to say something, please private message me through the board and we can exchange email addresses.
Thanks!
For the record - this is not for an assignment or a paid program I am taking a part in. It is for my personal use alone and will be used simply to add context to some theorizing, writing and contextualizing I am working on in relation to a developing project. |
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Lack of support for your assertions does not make you a sage, it just makes the rest of us doubt your reasoning skills. - Elias12, Flint Talk Poster |
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Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:31 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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When I was a teen, one of our neighbors was Harold Chirgwin, the Fire Marshall. When he was named city manager, I remember the council praising him as the most honest man they knew, and the ideal choice for the job. Two years later, the council fired him for refusing to do something he said was not in the best interests of the people of Flint. It seems like it's been downhill ever since. It's why I strenuously object to the ideas pushed by some of going back to a city manager & electing council members at large. it concentrates the power in the hands of a few & eliminates some of the checks & balances inherent in our system.
Police everywhere downtown & invisible in certain parts of the city may be a deliberate plan to ignore those considered "low class". Other possibilities are that it's a way to get poeple to leave certain parts of the city so they can be redeveloped into more upscale areas. Or, it could be that since the areas that seem to be ignored by the police are areas where drug trafficing is rampant, someone is being paid off to leave the dealers alone.
Back in the day, we went away for the day & left our doors unlocked. The Mott Foundation had wonderful programs in the summer. Boys baseball at every playground that had a ball diamond. Hundreds of classes in every school in town in every subject you could imagine. The vast majority of the classes were free. Flint schools and the Mott programs were considered the model for the entire nation.
What happened? People more interested in their own egos, personal agendas. People caring more about power & filling their pockets than about the city as a whole. The entitlement mentality. People thinking that "class & status" elevate them to being better than others. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:41 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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| A key issue might have been all the gm families living in flint who really cared about the city. I'm pretty sure about 80-90% of our college students will not decide to live in Flint. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:05 am |
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Domet
F L I N T O I D
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Thank you for your reply, Dave, I do sincerely appreciate it.
Adam - I do not disagree with you. I have serious concerns about turning Flint into a "college town." Do you have any other thoughts on the matter? |
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Lack of support for your assertions does not make you a sage, it just makes the rest of us doubt your reasoning skills. - Elias12, Flint Talk Poster |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:48 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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Yes I'm not on board with it. Although it appears to have limited success it could be shaky at best. I actually think we should try a "segregationist approach" in Flint. I think at the very least we should at least make places like certain areas or even all of the East side a "business freindly zone" although it might be easier to try and do it in the north end. I think all of Flint should be business freindly but realisticly that may not be possible.
For example I heard the north end lost a greenhouse because our ordinances "protected" Flint from "evil" greenhouses. The "hoop house" took 3 years to bring in and I think they may have even done a special ordinance to allow it. Even the rich white well connected downtown clan had trouble doing developments in the key part of Flint so for poorer areas like the north end we either need to ease up on our ordinances or bring in the bulldozers. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:02 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Report submitted to: Genesee Institute, Genesee County Land Bank. June 2007. This document summarizes the “Deconstructing Flint” research project funded ...
http://www.geneseeinstitute.org/downloads/Deconstructing_Flint.pdf - - Cached - Similar pages
Wes Janz Deconstructing Flint
Terry Bankert was Flint Clerk, then Ombudsman before he became an attorney.
Atty Tom Donellen and Atty Karl Bekofske both worked on the original charter revision.
Dave White of the Kettering archives is a historian and was past president of Carriage Town.
Ramona Sain, Directr of the Gnesee County Bar Asociation, is the daughter of Danny Sain, former UAW political Action Committe. She was acting Ombudsman for a time. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:38 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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Dont get too wrapped up in GM being the only reason for Flints decline even though thats the popular theory among way too many folks. In the late 70s all into the 80s we were working 7 days a week and local GM plants were going full bore . Downtown Flint on the other hand was just a smidgen of what it had been as businesses bailed for greener pastures and was on a rapid decline along with many once fine neighborhoods. The funny thing is that GM at one point actually had to go out of state to find folks wanting to work in the Shop. Their are reasons for the downfall of Flint but those that point to GM as the main or only one are being quite naive. As far as some of those other reasons ill leave it up to you to see if you can come up with some thru this reaserch your doing.  |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:10 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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| Downtown started going down hill when the malls started going up. Free parking was, and is, a big draw. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:04 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| Yup thats certainly part of it. Notice the lack of any GM involvement there? Onward and upward. |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:51 pm |
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1pissedoffguy
F L I N T O I D
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I was a kid when Genesee Valley Mall opened up. From the git all I heard from the adults how great it was not to have to worry about parking. Fighting over few spots in downtown Flint, having to run out and feed a meter, all this made shopping downtown a hassle. So I agree GM had nothing to do with the demise of downtown Flint. Unless one holds the idea that GM ,since they wanted everyone to own cars, discouraged public tranportation to the downtown area, thus making parking a major problem for would be shoppers. Like I said , I was a kid when the big mall opened it's doors and parking was not something I concerned myself with. When I was just starting in high school downtown still had some stores I liked to go to but the stores had basically all moved to the malls.
I think we may run the risk of becoming fixated on the colleges of the is area as being the saving factor. But I also see where the colleges will offer small businesses plenty of opprotunities to thrive. I know in Ann Arbor many people who had been students at the college there , after graduation, stayed in that area and opened law practices, open medical practices and some firms also opened up by alumni for architecture and other professional ventures started by fomer classmates.
And I have know at least at a couple instances where college dropouts in Ann Arbor started cafes and bookstores. And these also contribute well to the tax base of the city. Nobody can plan all of this sort of stuff, let people rise and fall as they chose for themselves. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:41 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| Another point on this free parking helped kill Flint idea. I remember that most downtown businesses would validate your parking ticket which translated into "free parking". Their was a cool young black dude Leroy who ran one of the lots and I remember his sign which stated "Park free ask Leroy". The malls were convenient handy and something new and trendy but they lacked that downtown feel that Flint at one time had. Holidays especially were really great. By the way of all the folks that worked in my area at GM I cannot remember any who actually resided within Flints city limits. Kinda ironic that Genesee Valley if it continues on its present downward spiral will probably find itself in the same dilema that now plagues downtown Flint. Lack of paying customers. Hey domet you want to get a perspective on what downtown Flint was like ? Try picturing upscale stores Like AM Davisons, Buckinghams, Crawford Zimmermans, Tremaine and Scott, Smith bridgemans etc all along detroit st as well as saginaw both north and south and all side streets kearsley, Ist,st 2nd etc. The Vogue for the ladys as well as Ivs who was owned by a teacher at our highschool Ive goodman as well as Ferris bros fine furs . Hatfield Jewelers and the Bill lamb record shop where you could sit in a booth and have a record of your choice piped to you before buying. Kresges dime store and later a montgomery wards. along with its parking ramp.Customers coming and going and all the stores open till 9pm on monday evenings. A great downtown for sure. |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:40 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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When Flint lost their anchor stores to the malls, most of the other stores followed. Montgomery Ward became a government building housing the District Courts, GCCAA, and the Health Department. One way streets were created to try to ease traffic problems.
Flint has tried to reinvent downtown many times. Parking has always been an issue. I worked downtown nd had my car broken into several times. There were awnings, and awning removal. The city tried angle parking an back to parrallel parking.
The downtown water features were pretty , but they caused some flooding and the dam broke. Weed strewn and filled with debris they became rather disgusting. I used to like to walk along the river until I no longer felt safe. The homeless slept near the DHS building and I witnessed drug deals near the old Berridge. I found discarded and ransacked purses and bookbags down there. Vandals damaged the UAW memorial.
When the clubs were downtown in the 70's it was impossible to drive through downtown on the weekends. Later,one of the clubs downtown attracted a racist and sometimes violent element. They painted their grafitti everywhere, even on he highest buildings.
Before the recent development, there was so many empty buildings, Flint looked like a ghost town.
The OIC was a nonprofit used by Flint to funnel economic develoment projects. The OIC blew up amidst criminal charges of fraud. The blach churches underwnt a schism when the Baptists refused to suppport the COGIC and other black churches, whose leaders were in charge of the OIC.
That was the era of Autoworld and Water Street Pavillion and the downtown hotel. Windmill Place was very successful until Water Street brought competition and in the end both failed. Mott Foundation bailedout the city on Autoworld and Waterstreet. The TIFA loans were paid off.
HUD was extremely impressed with our current success in building downtown. The question is how long this success can be sustained. |
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Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:32 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| And of course once again all this had nothing to do with GM. |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:07 am |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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right twotap millions of dollars were wasted in downtown Flint.
Rev. Pointer (formerly of Metroplitan Baptist), Woody Etherly. Woodrow Stanley, and many more who continued politically were part of the OIC debacle. The murdered councilman (Fred Tucker?) and his wife whose bodies were found in a Toledo landfill were tied in to OIC. He was allegedly going to talk to the FBI.
There was a smaller hotel downtown that was torn down after a relatively short time in operation. Petty Environmental tore it down and A C Dumas worked for them. The McDonalds (now an abandoned coney island) and part of Manhattan place are there currently.
Don Williamson and his wife bought Windmill Place. They later donated it to a Black ministers group that I believe was headed by Pointer. This group allegedly didn't pay bills and somehow Reverend Vincent Smith and his wife Rev. Emira Smith Vincent became the owners. There were lawsuits and lots of drama. |
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Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:02 am |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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| Tearing down old wonderful historic buildings which were unoccupied but still very usable to erect new unoccupied buildings was quite a fiasco for sure. As the mystery continues to unfold. |
_________________
"If you like your current healthcare you can keep it, Period"!!
Barack Hussein Obama--- multiple times. |
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Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:28 am |
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