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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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HB 4214 - Michigan Legislature - House Bill 4214 (2011)
Feb 15, 2011 ... As Passed by the Senate is the bill, as received from the House, that includes any adopted Senate amendments. ...
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=2011-HB-4214 - 34k - Cached - Similar pages
Al Pscholka - Michigan Legislature - Search Results
Feb 10, 2011 ... HB 4214 of 2011, House Bill, Local government; other; ...
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(to5j11454yytl4bt5llhbeiw))/mileg.aspx?page=ExecuteSearch&legislativesession=2011-2012&chamber=House&sponsor=Al%20Pscholka - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
2011 House Bill 4214 (Increase power of school and local emergency ...
Feb 9, 2011 ... Increase power of school and local emergency financial managers.
http://michiganvotes.org/Legislation.aspx?ID=131262 - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
Can EFMs Get Anymore Powerful?brPscholka's Bill Would End ...
Benton Harbor and Southwest Michigan Newspaper. ... for even more authority, if the Michigan legislature passes House Bill 4214, introduced by State Rep. ...
http://bentonspiritnews.com/can-efms-get-anymore-powerfulbrpscholkas-bill-would-end-remaining-limit-p4003-1.htm - - Cached - Similar pages
State of Michigan Employee Union - UAW Local 6000
Dec 8, 2010 ... Call your legislature and tell him/her to vote NO on House Bill 4214-4218 and House Bill 4246. In Solidarity,. Michigan AFL-CIO ...
http://www.uawlocal6000.org/ - 63k - Cached - Similar pages
Detroit Federation of Teachers - Home
DFT President Keith Johnson was in Lansing yesterday and today to testify against these bills. House Bill 4214 is being considered by the Local, ...
http://mi.aft.org/dft231/ - 47k - Cached - Similar pages
House and Senate Bills will Hurt All Public Employees – Police ...
Police Officers Association of Michigan · The Choice of Professionals ... House Bill 4218. download. House Bill 4214. download. House Bill 4215. download ...
http://www.poam.net/main/legislative/house-senate-bills-will-hurt-all-public-employees.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages |
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Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:16 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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I was just on facebook and I am amazed at all of the people that are going to help out in Wisconsin. They say they are preparing to do the same in Michigan. Practice makes perfect?
Last edited by untanglingwebs on Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:11 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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Republicans are lowering salaries just as gas, food and clothing are going up. The new clothing lines are expected to increase in price by 10%. Rough times ahead.
Detroit keeps raising the water rates. Basic needs are going to cost more. |
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Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:07 am |
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cleartheair
F L I N T O I D
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Web,
Republicans? Really? Maybe these people have not realized that cities are OUT of money. California, is even eliminating the giving away of Tchotchke's, (giveaway items) to save mere thousands, I guess I have to resort to saying, do we need to be like Democrats and just print more money?
In all seriousness, where do you think all this money is coming from?
As for the water rates; every house that is demolished in Detroit and Flint, means people that are connected will pay a larger share of the infrastructure costs, in the same way as American jobs are lost, union workers will have also have to support more of the infrastructure costs by way of smaller salaries.
The gravy train unions have made for themselves is unsustainable. |
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Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:20 am |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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| Have no clue what gravy train you're talking about. I just know the executives that run their companies into debt and bankruptcy become multimillionaires for doing it. |
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Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:54 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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Republicans need to cut the salaries of our governmental masters. Unfortunately Republicans care more about fixing the middle East than the USSA. It would be nice if Republicans could fix the USA and the middle East but I highly doubt they'll do either.
Commie dems should consider screwing over fascist interventionist Republicans that have no real plans to solve our problems and get Ron Paul through the primary. |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:04 am |
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cleartheair
F L I N T O I D
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Well Ted, every union I have worked for or worked with, got all the luxuries. I would work for a nice salary but when I worked in a union shop, (because I had the skill and the work ethic to actually get the job done) I got paid more, that is a premium, i.e. gravy train, i.e. Davis – Bacon.
I agree about the executives, the Chase Bank CEO just walked away with a $12 million dollar bonus, and people are still being put out of their houses, disgusting!
Nevertheless, union workers are the highest paid and least productive workers in the world. For a municipality that is unsustainable.
Adam, I am not sure what Republicans have to do with anything, the enemy is the government itself, only a fool would target one group while the other picks your pocket. Everyone in government has meddled in the rest of the world. I do not know about fixing the middle east, but just like Walling they watch out for the people who supply them with money and power, it is no different, just on a larger scale.
The problem is that whoever is in power they will likely be corrupted by power or swayed by the people around them who are corrupted by money. |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:18 am |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Nevertheless, union workers are the highest paid and least productive workers in the world. For a municipality that is unsustainable.
people that say things like this that have clue what they're talking about. Where did you get your information. I could list many places that are Union that make less than Non union places. I can name many places where Union workers productivity is higher than their counterparts. I've been in Management at GM and Ford and I've been in the Union with the Iron Workers. I've interviewed Union Leaders and had in depth discussions with Management in Plants. You're skewed option seems biased with you're lack of knowledge, |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:50 pm |
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CarolF
F L I N T O I D
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:36 pm |
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cleartheair
F L I N T O I D
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Ted, I have been in many unions, Teamsters, IBEW, The UAW at Ford and GM, and SEIU, and have subcontracted in facilities under those and other unions and I can say when subcontracting, we were doing the lion’s share of the work. I can see some places where wages and productivity are more in line; these are usually shops where the union is in bed with management. I actually come from an upper management union family (not UAW).
As for your comments that union workplaces can make less, you just made my case, in some instances, non-union people can make higher wages on merit and productivity; and it is likely management does not want to share management with unions so they can excel in their businesses.
As for discussion with union officials and plant management; Ted, do you honestly think they would tell you they were doing a bad job? Of course not.
Your character has slipped, how dare you try to belittle my knowledge and / or opinions; I would never do that to you or anyone. It was a very poor showing Ted. |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:52 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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You make Blanket Statements. I can point out so many instances in Union Shops where the Union got in Bed with Management and sold their rank and file down the river. I have found in the majority of Plant's I've supervised in That if it wasn't for the Union in those plants Management would have been able to send poor quality parts out the door. I've also seen where management fails miserably at managing their people. Then turn around and Blame the Union for their inability to manage their own people. I'm tired of the idiots that blame Unions for the drunk workers on the lines and the guys that Management let's sit in the bar.s across from the plants because they (Management) refuse to do their jobs.
The bottom line is if it wasn't for Unions there wouldn't be a middle class in the US. Buick City closed being the "Number One Plant in the World" It tied with toyota tahara in Japan. The UAW made Concession after concession. Each time they did. The executives took larger and larger bonuses for making those concessions.
You'll never find Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or any other company close it's best facility. If you applied the auto industry's thinking to other businesses. They'd fail also. Even K-Mart won't close it's best store. But isn't that wonderful. You can run a company into the ground. It goes Bankrupt and then Buys another store Like Sears. LOL.. Go figure. Companies Like Hamady's didn't go under because the workers were Union or they made too much money or they weren't productive enough. The management ran it into the ground. Gm Ford Chrysler wasn't failing because of the Union. It was failing because they refused to build what people wanted, they design in limited parts/component life so people have to return to get repairs.. Instead of stepping up to their competition. Those Fat heads in Management took the attitude that they always have had with their workers. You'll do it because we told ya to. You'll buy it because we built it and said you'll like it.
The Majority of the time people make those type of statements is because they see what they want to see. They don't have a clue as to what they really see. |
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:58 am |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Ted Jankowski schreef:
Buick City closed being the "Number One Plant in the World" It tied with toyota tahara in Japan.
I was there at the time, Ted; were you? Do you know Herb? |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:16 am |
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cleartheair
F L I N T O I D
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Well Ted,
I guess I will have to answer you point by point:
Comments from your post are in Quotes.
"I have found in the majority of Plant's I've supervised in That if it wasn't for the Union in those plants Management would have been able to send poor quality parts out the door."
Really, Ted, do you honestly mean to tell everyone that a company would send “poor quality parts” out the door? So you are saying that the “union” makes the design, business, and safety decisions for the company, and that most companies would send out defective parts if it were not for the union? You cannot honest expect anyone to believe that one.
"I've also seen where management fails miserably at managing their people. Then turn around and Blame the Union for their inability to manage their own people."
Ted, I am not sure you know how all this works. Management “fails miserably at managing their people.” Well by default if it is a union shop they cannot manage their people, the union will run interference and not allow, or water down the supervision. You have just stated the problem.
"I'm tired of the idiots that blame Unions for the drunk workers on the lines and the guys that Management let's sit in the bars across from the plants because they (Management) refuse to do their jobs."
So now, I am an idiot! You do amuse me, so let us get to work. You will not see non-union workers at the bar or other places during working hours because they do not have a union running interference for them, plain and simple, they would lose their jobs. Even during my tenure at GM if I had a drunk, I would go through the steps and not be able to penalize that person, which in one case lead to his death outside that plant, as the union allowed this to continue. In the real world, this guy would have been terminated and maybe had a chance because his loss of a job may have awakened him to his own problem. In this particular case, the union nurtured his drinking habit, but I am being anecdotal and not sticking to the facts.
"The bottom line is if it wasn't for Unions there wouldn't be a middle class in the US. Buick City closed being the "Number One Plant in the World" It tied with toyota tahara in Japan. The UAW made Concession after concession. Each time they did. The executives took larger and larger bonuses for making those concessions."
I do not think it is the bottom line, and I will acknowledge that the unions were essential at the time they were formed, but they got fat, lazy, and arrogant and mostly remain that way.
It really looks as if the union was the reason that plants like Buick city and Pontiac close simply because of the union, the more that the manufacturing in that facility was controlled by one union, the more of a stranglehold that union had on GM. The decision was made to decentralize the plant and dilute the union’s power. Remember all the crap about that pole barn being built on the property and what a headache it was for GM just to get a simple shed built? That typifies the problem with having a single plant the size of Buick and trying to share management with a union.
The concession the UAW needed to make was to stop interfering with the running of the plant, petty deals about small sections of turf, which lead to multiple trades covering a hundred square feet or so, and those job descriptions going on into the future. I understand corporate greed and am disgusted with it, but it had little to do with Buick closing down. Get a copy of the agreement between Buick and the UAW; it is an amazing document, trade after trade in layers, some with little to do all day.
"You'll never find Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or any other company close it's best facility. If you applied the auto industry's thinking to other businesses. They'd fail also."
A lot to take in here, I think you just made most of my case. “If you applied the auto industry's thinking to other businesses. They'd fail also.” The auto industry did not create the UAW directly, and I am sure never wanted to share control with them. However, they were a direct result of the appalling conditions in the plant. I am sure that these huge new industries bringing people off the farm and small town America had no idea how to run anything of the magnitude of the emerging auto industry. Mistakes were made, and petty ignorant people that got into management positions, who under pressure from even more ignorant people abuse their workers. I get that, someone needed to protect the workers. However, that was nearly a hundred years ago. A company should succeed or fail on its ability to operate correctly and market a successful product.
In most cases when union people take over, buy out, or create their own companies they proceed without being union, I am sure because they are now faced with the reality of management.
"Even K-Mart won't close it's best store. But isn't that wonderful. You can run a company into the ground. It goes Bankrupt and then Buys another store Like Sears. LOL.. Go figure. Companies Like Hamady's didn't go under because the workers were Union or they made too much money or they weren't productive enough. The management ran it into the ground."
“Best store,” well you are comparing apples with oranges, Buick City was a contaminated pit, and I have been there and seen the obsolescence. If the plant were able to operate outside the union, you would bring in a contractor, tear down the old, and modernize, but with the archaic union rules, you would have to bargain with the UAW just to get a building built, and in real world terms, it just is not worth it. It is much easier to build elsewhere and just begin operations anew, thus the demise of the mega plant.
You know, I can’t figure out why Kmart is still open, but they seem to be doing all right and are employing people so I guess it is a good thing, right?
I had talked to an old HR person at Hamady and he said the union WAS a factor in their problems and subsequent closing, but this is all second hand. Again, a management under a union is only partially managing at that point the union becomes part of the management.
"Gm Ford Chrysler wasn't failing because of the Union. It was failing because they refused to build what people wanted, they design in limited parts/component life so people have to return to get repairs.. Instead of stepping up to their competition. Those Fat heads in Management took the attitude that they always have had with their workers. You'll do it because we told ya to. You'll buy it because we built it and said you'll like it."
I agree partially, car companies in the US do not anticipate trends but again; it is easier to keep the assembly line running the same platform when the workforce is inflexible.
As for built in obsolescence, I think you are getting into conspiracy theory territory here, like the hundred mile carburetor, there is little proof that any of this was a conscious decision to turn profit. I think a lot of the car business is BS like one being better or worse than the other, I have seen a lot of bad engineering out there from everyone even the Japanese, but in reality they are all about the same.
"The Majority of the time people make those type of statements is because they see what they want to see. They don't have a clue as to what they really see."
Ted, I think you fall into the “see what they want to see” category, and again you try to belittle peoples experiences and judgments, I will tell you that I have experienced this from all sides, labor organizer, union member, management, and as a person hiring union workers, in certain markets.
If I missed any points, I apologize, I am writing this between phone calls, working with my people.
You seem to come from a very narrow perspective, and espouse that narrow union philosophy. |
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:43 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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See what I mean.
Forst Wayne IN General Manager got three days off for giving direct order to employee who wanted to tag a truck that had broken dash created such a stir when truck came off the line. Had no one in the Union made a stink anout it. He'd been the hero of the plant for getting it out the door. Just one of the situations I remember from there.
Marion In, Steel supplier comes in and troubles shoot Line that is making bad parts. GM management refuses for days to make changes. Supplier brought because of complaints from WORKERS!!! What you think they want to buy the Crap management sends out the line.
Remember the wonderful Million dollar ramp that Management had built over on Van Slyke? That went to a building that never existed then was torn down because they never built that plant?
Indianapolis In Management puts in New floor in Cafeteria.Porous Ceramic Tile. Line management argues with upper manage for a year about putting wax on the Floor. You don't wax Porous tile. Management wants it done. It finally gets done three shifts four people per shift cleaning and waxing. all weekend time. Come Monday morning.first thing Monday one of the first people to walk into the cafeteria hit their ass. Next week spent stripping wax. Which within a year floor gets replaced now it looks like crap. Ya can't get wax out of the pours.
While working at GM and Ford as a supervisor I rarely had any problems with the Union in disciplining workers. I've walked them out and written em up when I had to. I didn't play favorites. I could tell ya stories about how Management has refused to discipline certain workers and go after others. Politics in the plants was almost unbelievable to me.
Strangle hold on GM.. That's really funny. Many of the plants I was at or should I say Most. UAW was so in bed with Management.
You're one of these guys that don't understand what the Union actually does do you?
Union doesn't hire or fire. They do not give people their jobs back and They will not vote to strike to save a dirt bags job. But Management will give the dirt bag his job back and blame the Union for it.
Every year when contract talks are near. Management is told to bust people for anything they think they can. In order to build up bargaining chips for grievance negotiations. Instead of just enforcing the contract year round.
The unions job is to represent their rank and file. Just like a lawyer represents you in court. The union only gets involved when management does something that violates the agreement with the employees or they are present when I disciplined an employee. Otherwise I rarely had dealings with them.
Oh and as far Buick City is concerned. You missed it again. PBS did an special some time ago. Wagner talked in the interview that the biggest problem with Buick city wasn't the Union HE SAID.. Not Me Not your misguided ideas. HE SAID that they could not get Management to change their thinking at Buick City. Everything they changed and Tried they couldn't get management at the plant to come in line.
Don't get me wrong. The Trades their in many ways where exactly as you said Lazy and greedy. Many of them were convinced by (I can't remember his name, it'll come to me later) they shouldn't have to follow the contract and wanted to get paid to do nothing during some of the upgrades to the plant. There was already an agreement with the Union. I wish I could remember that assbag's name. The one who lead the protest during the ground breaking for the Paint and body shop that never got built.
quote:
As for built in obsolescence, I think you are getting into conspiracy theory territory here, like the hundred mile carburetor, there is little proof that any of this was a conscious decision to turn profit. I think a lot of the car business is BS like one being better or worse than the other, I have seen a lot of bad engineering out there from everyone even the Japanese, but in reality they are all about the sam
I have no clue what you're talking about here. I've been working in the auto service for the last 10-15 years. Only thing I know. Is when Japanese really started to be competitive they were trying to build cars to last. a Honda accord with 80k usually still has original brakes original wheel bears and many times still original tires. Owners of GM or ford equivalents are already replacing their brakes for the second time and replaced two or more of their wheel bears and working on third set of tires. After you've seen over and over and over again working in the industry. You have to start to come to the conclusion they design their cars to last longer. Did you have a another theory???
I've watched as certain GM cars had known problems. Known issues. Malibu's Pontiac's where the bearings go out at 45 to 55 k. 3800 pleniums melting at 35 - 45k GM knew they were bad, and instead of fixing or replacing them for three years GM kept sending them down the line. They even put out a campaign on them. To put stop in the anti freeze so they wouldn't completely fail until they were out of warranty. The Union worker didn't design it, they only put it on. Dorman made one that was less expensive. and didn't melt. I only can go back to some of my management training at Gm where they talked about how they designed certain components to last longer. It seems more logical now that I've seen it time and time and time again for years. |
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:32 pm |
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untanglingwebs
El Supremo
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From State Rep Woodrow Stanley newsletter:
I am opposed to these bills for a number of reasons. First and foremost, the state bears a degree of responsibility for the terrible financial situations of local governments. There has been a steady disinvestment in cities for much of the past 10 years. The City of Flint, for instance, has lost more than $7 million in revenue sharing from the state. New attacks on school funding and revenue sharing from Lansing will undoubtedly drive more communities into financial trouble.
I am also outraged that this law allows for an appointed emergency manager to be a private company. This provision removes our citizens’ basic right to democracy and essentially privatizes local units of governments and school districts. These bills also violate Michigan’s Constitution, as they break local charters, allow the emergency manager to break or change any of the state government’s existing contracts and leave local governments completely liable for any resulting civil claims or lawsuits.
Since the introduction of these bills, thousands of people have rallied at the Capitol in protest. Despite the overwhelming show of opposition from the citizens of Michigan, Republicans in the House and Senate have passed these bills and they are set to be signed into law by the Governor.
Coffee Hour on Monday, March 21
Please join me for a cup of coffee and conversation at my upcoming coffee hour this Monday, March 21, from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. at Golden Gate Restaurant, G3105 Flushing Road in Flint. I hold coffee hours at the same time there every third Monday of the month so I can listen to your concerns and ideas about state government.
Governor’s Budget Proposal |
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Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:06 pm |
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